Livestock Dogs

Transcript

Glen Scruggs – Former K-9 Officer 0:20

Dogs. They read us better than we read them. So I was a K9 officer for about seven years as well. as a canine officer, we weren’t. We didn’t just use a dog. We were taught how to train a dog to do the work that we needed because during the dog’s working career, you have to maintain that training or they won’t be successful.

Dr. Chris Pachel – Veterinarian 0:41

So I’ve been a veterinarian for 22 years and I’ve been working specifically in the behavior space since 2004. So just over 20 years now.

Dirty Freehub 0:51

This is retired Tigard, Oregon police officer Glen Scruggs, and Dr. Pachel, a veterinarian and behavioral specialist. Both of our guests today discuss with us a bit about livestock dogs and how to handle them in situations where you may be approached or feel threatened by them. First of all, tune in with Dr. Paul. So we’re talking a little bit on the topic of ranch dogs, livestock dogs. There’s different types of training for different types of dogs, obviously. But is there a trigger for the dogs chasing us to defend for like a livestock or ranch purpose? And maybe is there a way you could give us a like the dogs perspective on that?

Dr. Chris Pachel – Veterinarian 1:27

Yeah, I know. It’s a great question, especially when we’re looking at dogs who are free roaming intentionally. It’s not the same as if we were, you know, cycling through a neighborhood and happened to have a bunch of dogs off leash in the cul de sac. Right. It’s a very different circumstance. They do have a purpose. Those dogs are off leash. They’re they’re free roaming for a purpose. And a lot of that is territorial defense. It’s, you know, basically an opportunity to say, you know what? I know what belongs on property. I know what doesn’t belong on property. And if I spot that movement or an uninvited visitor on or near property, it’s often a very common trigger for those dogs to give chase to some degree. Now, the interesting thing about that is depending on sort of the the breed that the training, the learning history of that animal, we may see anything ranging from a dog who charges but pulls up very quickly when they recognize you’re moving away compared to another dog who gives chase, goes as fast as they can and they’re willing to catch up to you and attempt to make contact in in some way, shape or form. And it’s a pretty normal behavior for dogs and problematic, especially if those dogs are willing to come off property in order to chase after something they view as a threat.

Dirty Freehub 2:51

Yeah, that’s interesting, people always think like, even like small behaviors, like a tail wag. Not every tail wag means it’s happy. There’s a lot of interesting cues with that, too.

Dr. Chris Pachel – Veterinarian 3:00

Yeah, absolutely. And I’m glad you mentioned that. You know, when we look at something like the tail rate, the difference between a dog who is let’s say, quote unquote, wagging the tail, that the tail is up and it’s anything over the horizontal of the plane of the dog’s back, especially for a dog where that’s not sort of their normal natural tail carriage, that sort of flagging in a vertical stance, especially if that tail is sort of stiff in its movements and it doesn’t have a huge arc of movement that’s more likely to be consistent with more of an offensive threat posture as opposed to a dog where that tail is really low. Again, with a relatively small arc to that movement. And when it’s tight and clamped and moving really quickly, that’s more likely to be fear or perhaps maybe more of a submissive, a pleasing I’m not a threat to you trying to make sure you know that versus the friendly dog. We tend to get that wide sweeping arc. you know, we’re actually seeing that wiggle to the waist, right? And there’s looseness in the body. There’s friendliness in the approach.

Dirty Freehub 4:07

Will a dog run through an electric fence if we go by and the dog is really excited?

Dr. Chris Pachel – Veterinarian 4:12

I really like that question because when we look at something like an invisible fence or an underground electronic containment system or and any variation on that theme, we’re relying on sort of the threat of an unpleasant experience to maintain that boundary depending on the degree of training that dog has had, depending on the consistency of that training, the maintenance of the equipment, meaning if this is a dog who has had variable experiences, sometimes the battery’s dead and nothing happens depending on those factors. And what was asked in the question with the arousal or excitement level of the dog, there are a lot of dogs that when the motivation is high enough to get to whatever is on the other side of the fence or the fence line, they’ll absolutely go through. There’s not a physical barrier preventing them from doing so. And so that is one of the one of the major limitations of any any sort of fencing that relies on that rather than a physical barrier, is that if the motivation is high enough, there’s no guarantee. The other thing I find too, is and this may be a little bit more relevant for more suburban type environments, is that if you’re riding through a neighborhood and unless those flags are up to let you know that there’s actually a fence. Fence, I say in quotation marks. Right. Unless there’s a barrier that’s present. You know, I’ve heard of stories where somebody cycling through a neighborhood, the dog charges out and the fence like May two, within two or three feet of the roadway. And I’ve had people that have swerved thinking they were at risk and have actually injured themselves by tumbling, you know, either running into a fellow rider or something along those lines. Dog might not have ever even left the yard or the enclosure. But again, it’s it’s how well can we assess our own safety if things start happening at a moment’s notice.

Dirty Freehub 6:07

If I do get bit, it’ll say we’re cycling on a rural road and do get bit. Do you know, like even if it’s a small bite or a small dog. Like, what should I do and what kinds of consequences, if any, are there for the dog?

Dr. Chris Pachel – Veterinarian 6:20

So first things first, safety, right? So if you’ve gotten bit the the idea, I’d like to go, well, I’m going to go back in and let that person know you may be putting yourself in harm’s way of potentially being bitten again. So safety first, as far as I’m concerned. As far as I’m concerned. The second thing is documentation. So where were we? What happened? If you’ve got any video or documentation, maybe not of the incident itself, but taking a photo, hey, this is where I was at. This is where the dog made contact with me. This is a photo of the bike again, after safety has already been established within that situation. From there, it really can depend based on the extent of the injury, whether or not medical attention is required, whether it’s appropriate to fill out some form of report with animal control. Personally, I tend to lean in the direction of reporting so that if there is something that needs to be done, especially if we’re in a circumstance where the dog is actually coming off property and coming into public right of way, that does become a public safety hazard. With that being said, the actual stipulations, the actual statutes in one community may be very, very different from another or even the way that a particular community handles those sorts of reports may be very different. So it may be necessary, especially if you’re someone who’s who’s doing a lot of cycling on roadways where you may encounter dogs. Probably not a bad idea to familiarize yourself with the statutes in the community where you’re actively cycling so you know what to do, both to protect yourself as well as to follow up with that report. If it’s in document document, document, can you get a photo of the dog? Can you drop a pin on your GPS? You know exactly where you were when it happened. Again, if you are safe grabbing a video of the location of the dog might be relevant, both from an identification standpoint as well of it’s being able to share that information versus, you know, we keep on cycling 20 miles down the road. We noticed that. Yeah. Actually, that really does hurt. You know, we may need to look at medical attention and somebody says, does anybody remember where we were or what that dog looked like? And someone says, I think is about £20. Someone’s is now is a 40 pounder. It was definitely black. No, no, no. I think it was brown. Nobody’s going to remember those details. So really just documented. And then you’ve got that information to be able to report, whether that’s to medical care providers or to the animal control, depending on where that needs to be relayed.

Glen Scruggs – Former K-9 Officer 8:51

I know people are concerned that if they report a dog having been aggressive, that the end result might be the dog is put down. That’s definitely not the goal. The best result is that the owner is able to take better responsibility for a dog that’s got some aggressive tendencies. And I’ve definitely been with animal control officers multiple, multiple times when they spent a fair amount of time talking with someone about what they need to do with their dog resources that are available for training their dog and following up with that person down the road to make sure those things are, I think, are the things that need to happen are happening to ensure public safety. And usually if you go to the county’s a county’s website and take a look at their policy for animal control, or how are they title the agency can be different in different counties. In fact, here I put one up real quick. Yes, it’s fairly lengthy, but the sentence that stands out to me is that they want to have a practical tool in their efforts to hold animal owners accountable to reasonable standards of responsibility with their animals while protecting all citizens and animals of the county.

Dirty Freehub 9:57

That’s actually good to hear that they take it seriously. It’s not like, okay, there’s this incident, you know, here’s some paperwork for you to do. But like that there’s some sort of motive work on the dog behavior, too.

Glen Scruggs – Former K-9 Officer 10:08

Yeah, And when I read that, you know, it’s not it’s very it’s not one sided you it’s also for the animals protection and and all counties and the state have laws requiring people to properly care for those dogs or excuse me, they’re domestic animals. That’s usually how it’s labeled and pretty specific as to what they have to do in terms of what is a shelter, you know, appropriate food and water, room for exercise, veterinary care, when a prudent person would deem that response deem, that is something they need to provide. So, yeah, animal control is definitely not just in the enforcement business. Once again, it’s going to depend upon the severity of the incident. Any dog bite that breaks the skin. In the county I worked in, that was something that was had to be reported mandatorily. If it didn’t break the skin that you didn’t necessarily have to report, but you could. The way you would report in in Washington County, in Oregon is where I worked. You’d actually report to health services because the concern primarily is for illness. Once again, you can call non-emergency dispatch if you’re not meeting an ambulance or not needing police response, you’re no longer in danger. You know, if the dog has got you cornered and you’re concerned that you going to be beat again and nine one’s probably the appropriate number to call. But if you know, if you’ve created space and you’ve got time, that an emergency number will suffice. Law enforcement trying to respond initially. it’s also likely we’re going to we would request a settlement control services person to respond. There’s a lot of different levels at which the response can come from an animal control. Can cite a person for a civil infraction, for having a dog that’s aggressive and not keeping them contained and the community safe. A police officer would have the authority to arrest a person, which is obviously much more substantial than a civil infraction. If it was determined that the person was intentionally having the animal attack somebody or recklessly disregarding concern that the animal may attack somebody and things like intentional and reckless or actually legal terms used in criminal prosecutions.

Dirty Freehub 12:19

This is really interesting. It sounds like it’s very dependent on a lot of cases, too, with like the animals and the people interacting with them.

Glen Scruggs – Former K-9 Officer 12:28

Yeah. And there’s all kinds of circumstances that could change things, too. Th are exceptions for if you’re on if you’re on the property of the person and the dog’s property, then that’s a defense for why the dog was aggressive or even bit somebody. And it may mean that, you know, that dog and that owner are not in any kind of trouble at all because that occurred on their property and the person came on to the property. You know, if somebody is aggressive towards a dog, you know, if I approach a dog and then start to hit the dog and the dog bites me, probably isn’t going to be a civil infraction or criminal penalty for the dog. Having that the person the dog defense.

Dirty Freehub 13:08

How many people get sick or die from a dog bite, or is it common for people to even get bit?

Dr. Chris Pachel – Veterinarian 13:13

So it’s it’s definitely common for people to get it. And the statistics can vary based on how you ask the question. Right. Unfortunately, a lot of the statistics that we have about dog bites tend to overrepresented those that are serious, right? Those ones that require an E.R. visit where we’ve got multiple sutures or, you know, multiple bites and we’ve got more significant injuries. Those are the ones that tend to sort of lead the statistics in terms of being overreported. The vast majority of I’m going to I’m going to say, quote unquote, bites are what we consider level one or level two, Level one being some form of menacing or snapping without actually ever even making contact. But there wasn’t intent to threaten or harm. Level two is where we got some degree of contact. There might be a bruise or a superficial or a little laceration or some, you know, in some sort of contact. And yes, there’s an injury, but it’s not a full thickness puncture through the skin. That would be a level two. Once we get up to the actual full thickness punctures and whether it’s shallow or deep or whether there are multiple punctures, that’s where we’re looking at levels three, four and higher. Those threes and fours are the ones that tend to require medical attention. So those are the ones that we learn the most about. The level ones and twos rarely get reported and they’re the most common, especially in a dog that shows appropriate bite inhibition where they may aggress just enough to communicate what they need to communicate. And as soon as the threat has been neutralized, they back right off that good emotional control. And it’s more about a conversation rather than an intent to harm.

Dirty Freehub 14:56

What if I see a really neglected dog and I’m out riding my bike? How do I report abuse or neglect? Or when should I report abuse or neglect?

Glen Scruggs – Former K-9 Officer 15:05

The standards generally used as what a reasonable person believe that that person, that dog was being neglected. And if you do feel that way, that it’s time to report. It’s really the law enforcement officers job or the animal control officers job to determine whether or not the neglect is actually occurring. The person reporting really just needs to be suspicious or concerned that it’s occurring. The means in which you report is you can do it one or two ways. Generally, it’s going to be through a non-emergency number nine one. One is generally for things that are occurring at the time and need immediate response. Definitely could arise to that level if it’s a neglect or if you’re seeing abuse. That’s actually occurring at a time it might be worth using nine on one and they will determine the appropriate agency to respond. Most counties will ask you to either call animal control directly and they’ll have a number listed on their county website, or you can call the non-emergency dispatch number and just let the dispatcher determine who they want to send the call to.

Dirty Freehub 16:04

Yeah, totally. Sound is very dynamic. But am I more likely to get bit if there are multiple dogs?

Dr. Chris Pachel – Veterinarian 16:09

Actually, if we look at the difference between sort of true free ranging dogs that are truly living an independent lifestyle, they don’t really form packs the way that a lot of the wild canids or wild dogs or wolves or some of the other wild canids would do. So they may run together, they may feed off of one another, especially if there’s a lot of excitement or a lot of arousal. In some cases, that can be competitive. We may have, you know, a really fast dog who is wanting to chase but doesn’t really want to aggress that much. But we may have a competitive response between those two dogs. So as they’re sort of coming out of a pit, use the word jealousy, because it’s not exactly what we’re looking at here. But some of that competition, you know, I’m going to get there first. We may end up making contact with someone in a way that never would have happened had only one of those dogs been present in that moment. We can also see to that if there is any form of aggression or if one of the dogs perceives a threat, well, that gets communicated right, whether it’s their vocalizations, whether it’s their body language that sort of carries over and we get sort of a shared emotional state. Well, that can absolutely add fuel to that fire. So I would say in many cases are often more likely to have an incident when there are multiple dogs, multiple individuals involved. Whether or not there’s going to have to be a bite may come back to some of the other things about bite inhibition. Meaning how important is it for this dog to threaten to recognize that the threat is leaving and then to have the emotional regulation to go, cool. I did my job. I work here is done. I can back off versus the dog that once they’ve initiated that forward momentum, they’re going to go forward until such time that they either made contact or truly have have been unable to to make contact because of some barrier or because whoever was riding by was really fast.

Dirty Freehub 18:10

I could see them like, yeah, jealousy is not the right word, but like feeding off each other, getting hyped up about it. This is wonderful. Is there anything else that might be worth mentioning or anything you want to add that we didn’t talk about today?

Dr. Chris Pachel – Veterinarian 18:22

You know, I think one of the things that would probably be most relevant and this is something that I share, whether I’m talking with postal workers or the Amazon delivery drivers or cyclists in the neighborhood, if you’re not familiar with body language of dogs, of a variety of dogs, of different body shapes and breeds and types, there’s a lot of fantastic information out there, even just Googling canine body language tutorial, hop on the YouTube, look at some of those body language clips and try to get a little bit more of a familiarity with what that means. Meaning if I see a dog coming at me, I can usually spot in a moment’s notice whether this is actually something that’s of concern or whether this is something that I do, I need to kind of stand my ground to just stop moving. And is that going to diffuse that or do I really need to remove myself from that environment as quickly as possible? The answer there is often within the body language in the movement patterns of the dog. So if you’re going to be putting yourself into a place where that knowledge could be helpful, it’s absolutely worth doing a little bit of legwork on your end to try to maintain your own safety in those circumstances. Again, hopefully it never, ever happens, but it’s great to have that toolbox just in case.

Dirty Freehub 19:36

I love that I’m so glad you brought that up.

Dr. Chris Pachel – Veterinarian 19:38

Absolutely. One other thing that I’ll mention, too, and this is really kind of coming at it from the defensives safety standpoint of this as well, is if you have a dog who’s aggressing toward you, it’s hard to kind of know what to do in that moment. Right. Other than cycle faster. Right. There are there’s tools that that are available. There’s one called direct Stop or spray shield. It’s the name has changed a couple of times over the years. But the idea is that it’s essentially it’s almost like a little mace canister. It’s about the same side. But but it’s citronella spray. And so if you have a dog that’s aggressing toward you spraying that in their oncoming path, it is often aversive enough that it’s sort of even just sort of startles them and is more likely to deter further chase. So, again, having a toolbox that you can cycle through literally quickly to be able to say, okay,what am I going to do in this situation? It’s worth having in the toolbox

Dirty Freehub 20:31

It depends. That’s where it comes from. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Chris Pachel – Veterinarian 20:34

tackling.

Dirty Freehub 20:34

That’s so cool. I so appreciate you doing this.

Dr. Chris Pachel – Veterinarian 20:37

Absolutely.

Glen Scruggs – Former K-9 Officer 20:38

Thanks for having me.